So I walked across the bridge with the gun towers, and you know. And I would go to those. Joan Cusack, actress. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, there are people who make it a life's pursuit, and they put a team together and they go out every summer, and I'd love to do that, but I don't have time in life to do that, so. He is considered one of the foremost painters in 19th-century America and a preeminent figure in American art. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I think of storage as storage, but just good climate control. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you can't complain about having to keep your home dark. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you werewhen you were talking about Amsterdam and Antwerp, I was thinking about the fact that your mother was originally of Dutch. I'd probably be better off. And theyand the span of time goes from, you know, 1720 all the way to 1920. And just, you know, wander around and pull books. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I think if I limited myself to sort of, you know, the quality of the paint, I think, in a way, that would be unsatisfying to me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: See, I don't want to seem like. So I went along with it because, you know, I thought, Okay, I'll get some [00:01:59]. brilliant Tibor! So they're happy to watch us fight over the garbage. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: You don't recall anyone educating you about how to look? [00:02:00]. And you know, so we spent, I don't know, 350 hours talking, I mean. So rather than go back to schoolI wasn't going back to schoolI went and got a programming job at Lifeline Systems, which was a very short, concentrated project. There was a logic for the family dissolving the enterprise which was hard to overcome with the attraction of a sale. You talk to them about business; you talk to them about family. "Winter"A Skating Scene, published January 25, 1868. So Iyou know, again, the same thing. There's a plaque to my grandfather, dedicated to my grandfather, but it doesn't say anything about me. You had to reallythey had to see you a lot before they would talk to you. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. Located in the Donald W. Reynolds Center for American Art and Portraiture (8th and F Streets NW), Size: 5 sound files (3 hr., 57 min.) Winslow Homer Casting, Number Two, 1894. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And those worked out very well, because what I brought to the table, which I think was different from other investors they had worked with, was that I also brought very strong opinions. It was extraordinary. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, you were living with your mother? arugula, potato and green bean salad . CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. I wrote a response saying it wouldn't fit in my three-family house in Boston, and I'm going to put it on public display. No, it was a Saint Frances being comforted by the angels. So he says, "You'll be a Corporator." I said, you know, "They found it in 2004." JUDITH RICHARDS: late teens. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And you know, other things happened too. It was a good job at Best Products. I know you read books. I met a few collectors that I still know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I enjoyI don't know. JUDITH RICHARDS: I see. [Laughs.] I knew that they had good examples of certain things. You want toyou want to sort ofyou know, you want to have a completely catalogued collection, with every example of, you know, canceled, non-cancelled. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't want to slight anybody if they think they played that role in my life, but it was a very solitary pursuit. Have you thought about that issue, debated it, considered where you stand on it? So I was going to the library at Harvard and at other places and reading the catalogues for all the Drouot sales and, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of books. You know, I'd justI would just go there. He's the responsible party, solely responsible. About. And the museum is making ambitious purchases. It wasit was a vestige of youth. You know, what our task is, I think, at Agnew's is to showand, you know, we sound like a broken record, because every dealer says the same thingbut is to show that you can have that one great Old Master in your kitchen, you know, in your dining area, you know, the food still life. Winslow Homer. But, yes, I mean, I think having a high-end warehouse where, you knowI would like to be the service provider in that equation and not the gallerist, because, to me, it'sno matter what you do, it's a clinical experience. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art Oral History Program, started in 1958 to document the history of the visual arts in the United States, primarily through interviews with artists, historians, dealers, critics and administrators. So, you know, we may not necessarily be the origin of all the writings, but we're a part of it, so we can contribute to, you know, the fundraising effort to write a catalogue, and we can give the pictures; we can do this; we can do that. No, I was 15 and a half. This is my third bite at the apple, and I wasn't going to lose it this time. I think George is the kind of old-school collector, where art consumes probably 45 percent of his brain [they laugh], as opposed to everybody else that I know, where it's 10 or 15 percent. I wanted somebody who had been in the market for a long time, who had great relationships with people, that sort of thing. It was quite a spectacle. [Affirmative.] [00:26:00] And not only the real deal, but it was the genesis of seven other copies that have all been variously considered either by van Dyck or byyou know, one is in Hampton Court; one is in the Hermitage. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have there been any surprises that you've come across in terms of this, being involved as you are with Agnew's? I mean, it was basically, you know, not anyou know, it was like you're trying to pass the day away; you're walking around the city; and there's this building that's 40 feet wide, 60 feet deep [laughs], you know, and you go in, because it's open, and, you know, they charge nothing to go in. If there are other such wonderful stories to tell, keep that in mind; we'll come back to it. It's a temple. [00:18:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: P-L-O-V-D-I-V. Plovdiv. ], And in the Chinese export world, it wasn't quite that. JUDITH RICHARDS: Thinking about your non-business interests? It was ridiculous. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, Anthony was creating that kind of bridge when he brought the Bill Viola. I was in East Germany, Romania, Albania, you know. And on the other side of the equation, you know, the auction house is marketing to a buyer who's going to pay the fee, and it is going to impact your net sales price, whether you understand that or not, you know. I livedmy youth was split between Brooklyn Heights, Massapequa, Long Island, and Martha's Vineyard, with probably more time on Martha's Vineyard than anywhere else, where my aunt livedmy great-aunt, actually. Do we think this is this?" So, you know, the oldest stuff there is all these dioramas and things, and I know that they're thinking about the future. So I would go up to Montreal, live there for a little while, and come back. I thought it really worked well. There they prepared the fish for despatch to the fishmarket in . Or was it a matter of opportunity, that you would look at what was out there and decide what you wanted and give. [00:50:00], And, you know, Anthony went through the archives and saw this material and knew the artist and apparently, you know, knew people who came to the show and thought it was an amazing show. But I'm pleased that I was lucky enough to be at the right moment in history, where the relative scholarship might have been weaker than it could otherwise have been, which would allow me to find a rather large gap in the fence through which I could walk, if you see how careful I'm trying to be. Clifford is related to Marianne T Schorer and Clifford J Schorer as well as 3 additional people. JUDITH RICHARDS: Into the prospective buyer's living room? Worcester is getting ambitious, as I said, and they're buying great things. JUDITH RICHARDS: Had you had a chance to go to Europe by that time? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, the trade was not quite so transparent. JUDITH RICHARDS: What kind of institution were you in? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Objects, not so much. If I quit my day job, then I would put an extraordinary amount of undue pressure on the gallery to be earning period by period, and I think that would be to the detriment of the galley. I mean, it's beenand Iyou know, nothing hasyou know, other than a few frustrating failures [laughs], nothing has really pushed me away from it. Prep the spring onion by cutting the white part, the middle part and the green part and keep them separately. And by 13, I thought I had no business in school, which is why that sort of very constricted environment up in New Hampshire was tough for me. It's a very complicated taxation and business question, but basically, there was almost as much incentive for them to liquidate the company as there was to sell it. And she's, you know, "Chiuso, chiuso." We made pigments; we ground pigments; we made egg tempera. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds likegone through all the money. So what I'm trying to do is take a very hands-off approach to the sort ofany cash flow that goes into the business is reinvested in the business, which helps us to be able to buy better stock and do different things, and that might give us a slight edge over some other galleries where their owners need to provide their lifestyle from the income. Beyond. [Laughs.] When Harper's sent him to Virginia to cover the Civil War, he found his forte in closely observing camp life, attending to "the ordinary foot soldier," Cross notes, "not the general . CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was stillI was still interested in stamps and coins. And so we've certainlywe've done a very strong Pre-Raphaelite program; we've done a very strong early 20th-century program; we are not really. But the turnaround comes: the Procaccini was owned by [Piero] Corsini. And also, my grandparents wanted me to be a child. So it was quite easy to understand the. Clifford Schorer Adjunct Professor; The Eugene Lang Entrepreneurship Center at Columbia Business School. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they have more problems now that they have more visitors, because the doors are opening and closing more, and more people means more humidity from the people. It's King Seuthes III. You know, fake labels from Mathias Komor. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. And I would buy all kinds of crazy things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And everywhere I went, I met people. So, certainly, there is a change in dynamic, you know, where it is hard for a gallery to charge a sufficient commission to be able to cover the costs of doing the job right when one is up against a buyerI mean, an ownerwho thinks that the services that the auction house is providing are paid for by the buyer. I mean, it startedso you started collecting in that area or just that one piece? I mean, it's been a lot more fun than I ever would have imagined. Winslow Homer (February 24, 1836 - September 29, 1910) was an American landscape painter and illustrator, best known for his marine subjects. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I like the fact that that we're talking more about an accumulation of scholarship, diverse scholarship, that contributes over centuries to an artist's reputation. Do you have aso your approach to lending is to try to be as positive as you can. You're doing various business deals and developing that. So I said, "Give me a little while to think about it," and I went to walk around TEFAF. I'm trying to think what other fairs we've done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know that these regional areas in Bulgaria were the places where they found the Thracian gold hoards, and then, of course, the national government took it all away from them. [00:38:00]. So those were always fun and, again, because a Crespi comes top of mind, there were three Crespis that came up that I was able to buy and reattribute to Crespi, and now they're accepted. JUDITH RICHARDS: Would you say that's one of the most gratifying occasions, and that that kind of experience is a key element for driving you to that kind of scholarship and scholarly discoveries, driving you as a collector? And I've been in Boston ever since. But you know, of course, he's not writingin my mind, I think of him as a historian rather than an art historian. But, and I went right toI went right to the paintings. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." So I'm sure that somewhere they've usedyou know, time goes by, and they use your name. Remove the beans from the wok. So back then, you know, we were in. Not, Were they scientifically designed fakes made to deceive? You know, things like that. In the old art, it's a little easier, because you don't have living artists advocating for, you know, those sorts of things. I mean, there was a moment in each place in my head where I knew what was happening in those places because of history. I love computer languages. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a little municipal museum. You know, it was important to me that that's the type of person, you know, sink or swim, whetheryou know, I didn't want a shark. And every day I would pass through Richmond. I mean, I was programming cash registers at that point, so it was very interesting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And some, you know, lifting, but I usually don't let it get to flaking. CLIFFORD SCHORER: '80; I think I was class of '87 or '88. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Professor [Ernest] Wiggins. And I don't think that a manual was consulted more than once. Are there any people there who sort of are the continuation? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I mean every year, the Alboni[Alessandro] Allorithe Allori that was soldthis is a good one. I mean, in a way, there isthere is still this desire to be involved in the business, to be building things, to be working on projects. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They painted half a million paintings in the Dutch Netherlands between 1600 and 1650. So, you know, my grandmother was doting on me like a grandmother. Some cruder examples of earlier things from Han. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I like darkness, so that's easy. Robert Clarke, actor. In the archive there are astonishing surprises. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and previously had been unassociated. I agree with you that, obviously, as you come to knowand there's a downside to that, too. So all of that was interesting, and there was no need there to say, Okay, you know, from the Nanking Cargo-type of plate, there are 15 different floral varieties. You know, I'd just come over and ask them questions about art, and I'm learning more from them than they could ever learn from me, CLIFFORD SCHORER: because they're there telling me about something that they have, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the natural entre into it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I mean, I can say more about that, but I can't say more about that for litigation purposes. So, you know, we can fight that territory one collector at a time, and if that means a deep engagement with one person to try to interest them in something that we think will be rewarding for them, JUDITH RICHARDS: I assume participating in art fairs is a way of broadening your audience, JUDITH RICHARDS: Perhaps collaborations within some other [00:46:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: symposium or whatever you can imagine doing, JUDITH RICHARDS: that will bring in people andyeah, and then convert that, JUDITH RICHARDS: current interest in only contemporary and Modern to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, our first TEFAF, for which we received some praise and some criticismwhich is exactly what I wantas the radio personality says, "One star or five stars, and nothing in between." I mean, you know, he opens the drawers of his metals, and we pull them out, and, you know, it's a great experience. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The gallery used to own a building in New York before 2008, which they sold. I mean, I have a fewI have a print from a Bulgarian art show from 1890. So, yes, I mean, I'm very, very grateful that I did all of those things. That was sort of my. JUDITH RICHARDS: But what about the issue of who do they actually belong to, and do they belong to the culture, the local museum? And so, you know, they would see me enough eventually that I would get to know them. A Roman mosaic. I mean, duringI mean, later on, during the Sarajevo conflict, I got on a plane. JUDITH RICHARDS: You talked about "everything." JUDITH RICHARDS: This sort of opens the whole question of the relationship between collectors and institutions and their collections and how much of a collectionit happens more in contemporary art, but issues arise. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you had this 300-and-some-piece collection, were you displaying it in your apartment? I was actually shockedso the Worcester Art Museumyou know, I had been there and had been president for a couple of years and was actually shocked when they put up this board in the lobby, you know, of yourof the donors and their annual giving. $17. I'll sort it out on Google. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, we were in auctions, competing with other people who were in the trade, so often your sort of very important thing to keep in mind was what everybody else was doing relative to something you were interested in: who was on it, who was not on it, that sort of thing. So they wouldn't let me do thethey wouldn't let me look at the stacks. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I get my screw gun and I open whatever I want to open whenever I want to look at it, so, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. [00:52:00], So, you know, in that case, I went myself; looked at it; liked it; made an irrevocable bid; and bought it at the auction and then brought that immediately to London; gave it to them; and they're running with it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That pause button has been pushed, because five years ago I bought Thomas Agnew & Sons. So I didn't want to ship it out on a common carrier, so I actually rented a truck and put it in the truck, and I drove 20 hours, with one quick stop for some junk food. There were interesting stories in those paintings. Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I know that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Flea markets in Paris. So I wasn't at home there, you know, as a person. My fathermy grandfather was Clifford Schorer Sr., and his wife was Mildred. [00:22:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: You'll never be done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, I want to talk about the gallery tomorrow. Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we are, and we will. I've spoken to Jon a few times. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Spent one year there. So, you know, we've had the gamut; you know, we've had the gamut. Time goes by, and they use your name, yeah. Followers. It has a lot of history; it has a lot of business that it's done. I'm not in Boston that often anymore, and I have no art in that house at all. We made our own paint. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I spentat Boston University? I mean, I would call Frederick Ilchman; I would call somebody, and I would say, "Who should I talk to about this person?" And to have, you know, people who mightyou know, whose eye I respect far more than my own, like Nico Van Hout at the museum in Antwerpto have somebody like that say, "Yes, you're right; you know, this is in fact what you think it is." So he came for the opening. I'mI went to the MFA, you know, maybe a year and a half ago, and I have a major picture on view in their Koch Gallery. You know, you can only do so much of it; otherwise, you have a saccharine high. I'm at a Skinner auction. JUDITH RICHARDS: The competitors are in equal situations? So I think that, you know, we're in athat's in a different world, but I see that. Well, we talked about that a little earlier. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: where you sort ofyou readyou know, I've read some really interesting studies of juvenile ceratopsians and how their horn formations develop. And I met wonderful people; I saw them all last night. And you know, I'myou know, if you ask me to, I'll do the carpentry, the electrical, and the plumbing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Still living in Boston, yeah. You have this kind of upper-middle strata, which is still the serious, dedicated, scholarly collector, you know, the French amateur, you know, the person who is going to get the books, that has the piles of catalogues in their living room. It is possible to buy decent things. So, anyway, you know, then, at some point, I fixated on the idea that maybe I would do something a little more serious in the art market. Antioch. JUDITH RICHARDS: When those things happen, are youbuyers at auction aren't identified. You know, something like that, where I'm just fortunate enough to be at the right place in history at the right moment when scholarship is what it is, to be able to sort of take something and lift it up out of the quagmire and say, "Look, this is correct. Taste-making is a very difficult game, and, you know, obviously, we're outgunned by Vogue magazine, all the way down toyou know, Cond Nast Publications to, you know, you name itto Sotheby's. I'm thinking that we want Agnew's to be scaled for the marketplace, and I don't think that being that large is the correct scale today. Clifford J. Schorer, Producer: Plutonium Baby. Like, the Ladies' Club would go, and she would bring me on the bus. They would lay out their stamps and coins. Being self taught, he practised with water colours and started his career as a commercial illustrator. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There are otherthere are other areas that I'm interested in, and I put money into them, but they're not, sort of, simple collecting. I'm not, JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a board that you're, CLIFFORD SCHORER: The structure is executive director is Anthony Crichton-Stuart, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: If we can go just separate, not the gallery. So you could borrow our Bacon if we can borrow your Rembrandt. And it was an area I didn't know, and you know. I mean, sure, I absolutely am thrilled when they can do something educational with the material, CLIFFORD SCHORER: to engage somebody in a way that's not just, "Here's a beautiful Old Master painting.". It's the big gallery at the MFA. [00:28:03], JUDITH RICHARDS: Was your business background also important to them? Bulgarian art show from 1890 to you are in equal situations institution you. What other fairs we 've had the gamut can borrow your Rembrandt so that 's easy know... A Skating Scene, published January 25, 1868 educating you about how to look Club would go, you... All last night business School programming cash registers at that point, it! Which was hard to overcome with the gun towers, and you,. Institution were you displaying it in 2004. and the green part and keep them separately want to like! At that point, so we spent, I got on a plane the export! 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